Author Topic: Wrong Colour Space Conversion (WD Confirm FIXED and in next firmware, no ETA)  (Read 21935 times)

December 05, 2009, 04:01:40 AM
Reply #15

coastline

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I somehow think that I might be waiting a while for support to get back to me on this one - think they might be busy printing all those RMA stickers, what a mess!

Luckily I didn't do the upgrade but I feel for those who got bricked!

December 05, 2009, 08:24:44 AM
Reply #16

wiiBox

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I've not much to add, but I do feel I should say something since I've referred to the color decoding issue a couple of times.

Personnally, I don't find this problem to be overtly present in any of my material, enough so that it would detract from my enjoying the program.  I guess I need to be shown the difference side by side, but right now I'm not bothered.  I really couldn't point to any part of a video and say, "There, that's the problem".

This might as well be the difference you get from different displays output/technology/manufacturer as far as I'm concerned.  It's just one of those things.

Most of my media is SD, but all of my HD stuff only looks better.

About the OP, I really can't say anything looks out of the ordinary to me.  Maybe some photographs would better illustrate your problem to us.  Maybe comparison between your Bluray and wdtv live.  Then we'll be better able to say to what degree your are just seeing things.   :D

Good luck!


Edit:
Now that I've had a little more experience with HD material that doesn't seem to have the colour space flags expressly delineated, I have come to the same conclussion as the OP.  WD should want to find some kind of resolution to this problem ASAP.   ::)

Firmware 1.01.12
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 06:09:12 PM by wiiBox »

December 16, 2009, 02:25:32 AM
Reply #17

coastline

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Hi Wiibox, thanks for the input.

I finally gave up with the e-mail support ticket - no reply in over a week.

I rang and after a very short conversation with level 1 support they said they would escalate to level 2 support.  The guy I spoke to was actually very pleasant didn't try to bull me and told me straight he knew more about hard disk support - hopefully I'll get a response by the end of the week.

With regard to pictures of the differences - I will try and take some this week.  Have been snowed under recently so not had much time.  Defiance is another good example - some seriously purple lips (yes I know it was cold in the forest, but not that cold)!


December 16, 2009, 01:46:51 PM
Reply #18

wiiBox

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Hey coastline,

Funnily enough, what finally tipped me off was suddenly seeing purple people on my tv! 

On my pc, I happen to use Haali's video renderer which has the ability to select colour space automatically (so I wonder why WD/Sigma can't do the same), but also allows you to select manually, on the fly, between BT601 (SD) and BT709 (HD).  So switching to the SD profile on this HD file turns some people purple in the same way I see it displayed on the wdtv live.

Definitely would love to hear how you get on.

TIA

December 18, 2009, 04:02:53 AM
Reply #19

coastline

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Please excuse the bad photography but hopefully these comparison shots between my Panasonic BD35 and my WDTV Live will give an idea of the colour differences I am seeing.  Output is to an infocus X9 on a 92" fixed screen.  My X9 is calibrated by hand/eye using DVE HD basics.

If anyone else can try comparisons on their kit I would be interested in the results.  I realise that my particular setup/calibration may show up the differences more than others so to what extent this problem is visible on other kit would be useful to know.  I have attempted to calibrate for the WDTV live but cannot get an acceptable picture which makes sense if the wrong colour space conversion is being used.  (The pictures are taken using the settings calibrated to the BD35).

WDTV Live - Highlander


Panasonic BD35 - Highlander


WDTV Live - Defiance 1


Panasonic BD35 - Defiance 1


WDTV Live - Defiance 2


Panasonic BD35 - Defiance 2

December 18, 2009, 05:19:07 AM
Reply #20

wiiBox

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Pretty glaring, isn't it?  I have similar results but probably not as dramatic as your first two shots.  Obviously, YMMV.

Hopefully, this and similar discussions online will put pressure on the people responsible to expedite a fix. 

Now... does anyone know if realtek based players do any better?   ::)

Great post, coastline!

Cheers.

December 18, 2009, 02:53:37 PM
Reply #21

Barbara

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WDTV Live - Highlander



Can you please cut those scenes using mkvmerge (mkvtoolnix) and upload it somewehere?
I'd like to test them on my players, too!!

January 15, 2010, 11:58:39 PM
Reply #22

SiegeX

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I don't know if the .17 firmware still uses Rec.601 for unflagged HD content but setting the WDTV Live's Colorspace to YCbCr should bypass this problem as it will let your display doing the color decoding.  Whether or not your display decodes unflagged HD content to Rec.709 is another story, but my guess is that it does.

January 16, 2010, 02:08:13 PM
Reply #23

Hokeysmoke

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Have you tested this?  I know my WDTV (original version) outputs YCrCb and still has this bug.  The reason it does is that the HDMI transmitter is doing the color space conversion from RGB back to YCrCb.  So I would be interested in knowing whether this switch does anything that helps.

January 16, 2010, 03:45:58 PM
Reply #24

SiegeX

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You are right, no matter if I use YCbCr, RGB High or RGB low, the color decoder test pattern still flickers  >:( 

Question for you, why is the HDMI transmitter even having to decode RGB to YCbCr?  I was under the assumption that the vast majority of media is encoded on disk as YCbCr 4:2:0, therefore the ripped version would also be in that same YCbCr format.  Apparently, this assumption must be wrong and somewhere in the ripping process the YCbCr data is decoded to RGB and that is what is stored in our mkv's or mp4's.  Its either that or my Plasma display also has the same bug where it defaults to Rec.601 on unflagged content.

I really can't believe that this bug still persists after nearly half a year.  All WD needs to do is to add an option in the Video Settings that lets us select which decoding matrix we want to use for unflagged content.  The best approach of course would be to have an 'auto' option which looks at the resolution to determine the decoding matrix.

January 16, 2010, 06:16:28 PM
Reply #25

Hokeysmoke

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You're asking the same question I asked 9 months ago when this issue came up with the Popcorn Hour players.  Apparently there is no option when using the Sigma Designs SDK to keep YCrCb unchanged unless you're playing a Blu-ray disc or .iso file.  All of the developers have been waiting for a fix from Sigma Designs, and so far none have been released to the public in any of the players that use their chips.

January 16, 2010, 10:42:51 PM
Reply #26

SiegeX

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Well this seems like a bunch of crap.  I guess ignorance was bliss but the fact that I know about it now makes me want to put this WDTVLive on ebay and get a media box that faithfully displays BT.709 colors with unflagged content.  However, it seems like all the popular players out there exhibit this behavior because they all use this chip. 

Have you tried using the component outputs with YCbCr?  I wonder if that will go out unmolested.  Also, I read in one of your posts that we cant calibrate this out but perhaps that not so true.  If I were to use test patterns that were flagged Rec.601 (or not flagged at all) and then used calibration software and adjusted the color/tint agaisnt the BT.709 standard, wouldn't that solve this issue for the majority of our media which is unflagged?  If my thinking is right, I'm sacrificing color fidelity for SD content and HD content that is flagged as BT.709 for accurate color representation of unflagged HD content.  Since I only have one of the former and 20+ of the latter, that seems like a good trade off for me. 

January 18, 2010, 03:06:53 PM
Reply #27

Hokeysmoke

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I don't have a WDTV Live so I cannot try anything on it.  I know on the Popcorn Hour A-110 that the component output has been calibrated to BT.709 using BT.601 test patterns, so it's really not optimal.  When you use BT.601 instead of BT.709 for your color space conversion, data is lost.  There are values of green, for instance, that get clipped (using BT.601 makes values greater than 255 so they get truncated back to 255).  This data is lost forever.

There's been a development over on AVSForum.  Have a look at this post from Keith Jack at Sigma Designs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17952296#post17952296

"our firmware does support making the default BT.601, BT.709, or BT.601 for SD and BT.709 for HD. Problem is that few customers currently know about this option"

If true, then this really is a shame.


(edit: corrected the link above)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 09:38:19 AM by Hokeysmoke »

January 20, 2010, 06:22:30 AM
Reply #28

wiiBox

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Thanks for the update Hokeysmoke.

But I think this is the link you meant to post.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17952296#post17952296

Your original link is a bit truncated in the around the end.   ;)

January 21, 2010, 03:25:31 AM
Reply #29

coastline

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Hi Guys,

Sorry to abandon this thread for so long.  I've had a few personal things going on that put this on the back burner.

I have had an open support ticket with WD since the 3rd December.  It was supposedly being escalated to level 2 support - I think this means that they have actually seen a manual for the device in question :-)!  But so far they have ignored my question asking for confirmation that the WDTV Live uses BT.601 for unflagged HD material following the usual script of "Please send mediainfo outpu so we can see what Codecs are being used...balh,blah,blah".  I just wanted someone to own up to the issue but so far... nada.

I have just updated the support ticket with the info from Keith Jack (Thanks for that Hokeysmoke).  So maybe I might get a response now.

Won't hold my breath though.

Cheers