WDTV Forum - WDTV Media Player

WDTV 1 Forum Groups => Homebrew / Custom Firmware => Topic started by: powerleakin on July 26, 2009, 08:50:50 PM

Title: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 26, 2009, 08:50:50 PM
Hi guys. been a while since i last logged in.

I see that many people are doing many great things here, ranging from app packs to xml stuff. It's becoming very hard to follow up with things(especially when you don't login for a while) as there is no proper database. There are 2 threads that have been stickyed for this purpose but that did not solve the problem,imho.

What we need is a database system. I propose:

1. A database system broken into categories: Firmware, Addon Applications, Themes, Dependency and any other categories necessary (for instance, there can be category for experimental ideas)

2.I propose each listing in the database should have the following criteria.

a) a description of what it does
 -This is necessary so that you can quickly know what it does..
- And with newbies at heart, i hope we can keep it easy to understand(not too technical...it's just a description rite?)

b) some screenshots showing the function/feature/addon/theme
-So that people can get the idea easily.

c) Dependencies Needed
-wat firmware is needed, what optware app is needed, whether other app like webserver or event osd is needed

d) Proper Instructions On Installing & Uninstalling
-again i hope that it can be kept as simple as possible too for the newbies.

e)a comprehensive changelog
-With this, then we can quickly know what has been improved and updated.

d)Limitation & Known Issue
-If the limitation has been solved in a newer release, then instead of removing it, a cross across it and the version number resolved should be good.

e)Download Link
-i suggest mediafire because you can have a folder there. so,when you keep uploading your new releases there, you are at the same time creating an archive,so people can still get the older version if they want it.

f) A link to wdtvforum-discussion link
-link to the corresponding thread in our forum so that ppl can post feedback,suggestion or ask question regarding the app/theme/addon.

g)Road Map (optional)


If you guys agree with me and we do this, we will have a website which will always be easy to follow. Even if someone just bought a WDTV and is new to the WDTV world, by coming to the database, they can quickly know what they can do with their WDTV.

Looking back at my proposal, I guess some might think that the are too many criteria and it's a waste of time. But I beg to differ. If we are going to create a system, I guess it's only fair we make it as friendly as possible to newbies. I noticed that our forum is a great resource for WDTV, in fact the best I'd say. But I must admit it's quite a challenge at times for those not too technically informed. Sometimes the description in the thread is quite technical. For example the xml sheet stuff. I understand that it somehow uses tvixe and moviedb but i don't know the status of it nor how to use it. Just to prove a point, if we have the system, I would have known the status and how to use it very easily.

Actually it just occurred to me that, it's not the newbies alone that will appreciate simplicity. In fact,i believe everyone including developers will appreciate it. So, again I propose, that if we were to do this system,let's do it with simplicity as the theme.

Jay Allan, i think it should be part of the wdtvforum.com domain too, and as said above, you can tie it to the forum by the discussion link. I don't know much about the technical side of building a system like this, but i can help out with ideas on the structure, usability and etc...

I hope that everyone supports this idea. Support it by posting a reply.

Looking forward for your response Jay.  :)

Thanks.

Regards,

mahen
malaysia.

Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: elmarweber on July 27, 2009, 12:18:09 PM
Hi,

I agree with the idea, the database fields make sense. Whether mediafire is the best way for downloads is debatable, as an alternative definitely, but what about offering webspace directly with the database? This way everything is at one place.

I did a quick search and found a download system that has all required features: screenshots, custom fields, categories, HTML for extended descriptions and a basic user system for rating and comments (although that can be disabled). I set up a test installation at http://test.elmarweber.org/. Normal user is "test" password "test", admin is "testadmin" and "testadmin". Hopefully there won't be any destructive natures reading here =)

Took it down, most people got a look at it. If you need further info, the script is from http://www.phpcredo.com/Software/PHCDownload/.

The system seems a little complex, so it does not meet the simplicity criteria, but that can probably be done by adapting the theme.

The other way would be to develop the database from ground up, can probably be done in a day or two.

ciao,
elm


Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 27, 2009, 04:47:30 PM
hi elm!
actually offering home webspace is d first choice,but i didn't suggest it because then they need a good hosting service with lots of space and bandwidth and this will definitely require financing..if it's not a problem,then it definitely should be our first choice...

your system is nice..but i think as you said,if we were to use that, we should adapt it to be more user-friendly and simple.
building from scratch is a good way too...it'll perfectly fit us as it'll be purpose-built. anyone here with any ideas on it?

thanks.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: bobosquishy on July 27, 2009, 06:04:07 PM
The owner of these forums is already hosting a wiki.

http://www.wdtvforum.com/wiki/

To put it bluntly, the wiki is crap (no offense).  I think either he needs to be using better wiki software or simply start the whole thing over from scratch in a new direction.  Maybe he'd be open to your ideas.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: 3dxr on July 28, 2009, 12:04:31 AM

thats not true  we have 2 hostings one is webforum and second location WIKI/dokuwiki

wdtvforum.com/wiki is only redirector to right update web location
WIKI is obsolette I am not native english speaker and I dont have any time update WIKIpages
and people who have account isnt updating pages thats all WIKI has most important page with supported USB lan adapters
everythink else is here.

I think nobody will do new WIKI from scratch only someone who have really to much time.

somethink from history I started new thread on avsforum.com  separate thread which exist still there
it was really not possible collect many information from 30pages in single topic thread
WIKI was solution becouse our idea was extend WDTV fw features and keep our tech talk clean we have to stay locked
before end users request and simple conversion problems / first fw releases was not perfect too many bugs in each format
WDTV will have one year and will come WDTV2 soon probably we will open separate category for new model
this will need also re-organize existing WIKI (I am not sure who will do it HTML/AJAX/CSS knowledge and many freee TIME is required) I am working on other altering fw or GUI I am trying find and collect bugs in fw this is my priority.

and you are right DokuWIKI is not perfect for our project for good design is CSS required and this is not good
for easy and fast updates but other WIKI require SQL and hosting not supporting any SQL yet
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 28, 2009, 01:33:19 AM
i think the wiki idea is digressing a bit as wiki is more for knowledge and we want a central location for all the hacks and mods..
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Rev Drew on July 28, 2009, 02:08:54 AM
i think the wiki idea is digressing a bit as wiki is more for knowledge and we want a central location for all the hacks and mods..

+1
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Jackson on July 28, 2009, 02:39:15 AM
I agree we need more organisation.  I want to try all these great creatons but it's becoming very hard to keep track of the updates and new functions as they are posted to multiple forum threads. 

And the big issue for me is tracking the dependencies on whichever base firmwares and addons.

I'd also like to see a (single store or master list of URLs) respository for the downloads that doesn't depend on rapidshare (and less so the others of that ilk) because I never seem to be able to download the files - someone else downloading at the same time on my IP (eg if checking while at work - 1000s of staff behind a proxy means there must be more than one wdtv fan...)

Something else to capture would be how a mod co-exists with other apps.  From the threads it would appear that rtorrent can be made to work reliably but has a trendency to crash itself or other apps due to its memory use for example so advice to mugs like me not to run rtorrent and other memory hogs is useful and so on.

Personally as a non-Linux person (but 20 years in IT), I'd also like to see fairly detailed install and configuration instructions that don't require a lot of implicit Linux knowledge eg explicit locations for config files rather than assuming I know where to look.

The sticky for the firmwares was a good start but needs to be maintained with newer versions being captured.

I think we need to keep UI/Skinning mods separated from new functionality as much as possiible so we can use functionality stuff without necessarily requiring the eye candy that some of people obviously want and use. 

Obviously we do want the UI to change to make the functionality visible on TV ideally but not hardcoded to a particular skin if possible.

But finally thanks for everyone's hard work - I'm in awe of what you guys are creating!
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: TON on July 28, 2009, 03:16:17 AM
I would vote for wiki as well. I do not think it will be easy to structure the info about all mods in such a way as it fits the database format; the mods are just too different.

Probably the best way to do it would be people documenting their mods directly in the wiki not in these threads. This way it will not require much additional effort on their side.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: redindian on July 28, 2009, 03:38:36 AM
A central repository seems like the best solution. The system on http://test.elmarweber.org is already a big improvement and suite most of our needs. If it can also provide older versions it has my vote!

+1 for this solution :-)

I'd also like to see a public download (like with the test site) option so eventually we can get a system to automatically download files, extract and install them. Something like with Homebrew Browser on the Wii and the XMBC plugins on the Xbox.

The Wiki can still exist as a knowledge base for other stuff. It already contains a lot of good info. Could be moved to another wiki if anyone feels like doing that.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: 3dxr on July 28, 2009, 03:44:20 AM
WIKI is the bst solution howto create WEB 2.0 - content made by users/citizens
its only about time - knowledge use WIKI tags and ability share knowledge and explain to others ( this is the hardest part )

WIKI was closed becouse at start we has problem with end users who want create somethink like wdtv.wetpaint.com
and want stay more technical - like openwrt project anyway at start doesnt exist any documentation
there was also some bicked units  current knowledge providing still also only MOdding existing stuffs (gui and add Zoranders features)

BTW Z. where are you no response from your side also on my last emails :(

WIKI has still contain many usefull information only need redesign and update and also correct english.
Webforum is for exchanging end user opinions or share single topic knowledge both CMS are important
for sharing and expanding community

Keep on mind only strong community is power which is able request new features and keeping device longer on market
look on Linksys WRT..GS model today exist 7 next revisions and GS is still on market becouse community is using this
Linuxbased model and only non linux and pure endusers using VxWorks models.

Its very easy release each 6-12m new model and keep existing model die but community is able press on company.

another example Windows XP who wants VIsta ? nobody then exist Win7 and planned WinXP support was extended min 2 times
and Win7 will use companies when software will stop working on WXP

Back to re-designing WIKI I will open WIKI maybe soon and I am not sure if too many people will be able
work together and update content seriosly.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: elmarweber on July 28, 2009, 03:52:02 AM
Hi,

I think it can be done in a Wiki with a proper template and some work to ensure consistency. Although sooner or later problems with vandalism may pose a problem and there is no support for downloads.

-
The main problem with the wiki at wdtv.org not being updated anymore is that the login and register buttons are no longer on the first page =)
Before creating a new wiki its probably best to improve the existing one because most links point there.

There is also http://wdtv.wetpaint.com/, although its updated even less. I'm not sure who is behind it.

-
hi elm!
actually offering home webspace is d first choice,but i didn't suggest it because then they need a good hosting service with lots of space and bandwidth and this will definitely require financing..if it's not a problem,then it definitely should be our first choice...

The easiest way would be to use sourceforge.net for hosting, they have a fast mirror network that can handle anything. Problem there is that the software must be under an Open Source license and that would pose a problem for some mods. Hosting has been offered in the forums (see http://wdtvforum.com/main/index.php?topic=561.0), although I'm not sure which kind of bandwidth is available there. I have some dedicated servers spread around I use mostly just for web application testing, they have enough space and power, but traffic is limited around 1000GB per month without me paying more for it. Not sure if that is enough, appletrailerfs produces about 15GB traffic per month in downloads (about 300 users). Same for wdtvtools, around 40 GB/month and just a few users (mainly developers). Firmware images and themes have probably thousands of users.

ciao,
elm
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 28, 2009, 05:47:34 AM
okay..lots of discussion..

yea elm...we can try sourceforge...can't predict the volume of ppl when apps continue grow,so don want to exhaust your bandwith..

yes red, repo is the word...
thanks jackson and red drew for the insight..

i guess if it's ok, we can start workin on elm's test page and eventually when it's done, bring it into the wdtvforum domain...this is important so that the system doesn't become redundant..we want all those who upload their creations at the forum to use the system...
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Rev Drew on July 28, 2009, 04:46:02 PM
I have a rapidshare account and would be willing to put any files on there.
I have had it for 3 or 4 years and don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon, actually just renewed it for another 6 months..
Bandwidth is obviously not a problem, I don't think the content is an issue either..

so there is an option or solution for any files..


and no I wont be giving out my login info, you send me the files and I will upload them there and post the links..  ;D
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: redindian on July 29, 2009, 02:24:54 AM
Although your offer is very kind, personally I don't think that is an option. It will result in exactly the same as we have now. Spread discussions with links to rapidshare files. Also if you loose interest we loose everything.

We need a central system that can be managed by multiple people. Sourceforge could be an option, since it was ment for software releases. Maybe combined with a section on the forum where only releases are posted so questions and applications are separated.

Then when a new version is out the previous thread can be closed to make sure only the most recent version is shown as first results in the topic list.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 29, 2009, 02:56:32 AM
yes central location is better,imho..and some don't like rapidshare...
what we can do is main location should be either webspace or sourceforge
then if anyone wants, mirrors can be added...rapidshare, mediafire etc...
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: jayallan on July 29, 2009, 10:54:30 AM
WOW,

This thread grew fast.   I agree there needs to be more organized information.   The problem is that I can't do it alone.  The advertising on this site BARELY covers the costs.  I plan to add a Wordpress blog and some articles to the front page of this site.   So far though no-one I have approached to contribute is willing to write anything.  I would love to have guides to all the homebrew projects, as well as several lists (for example ref frame limits) that people can refer to.   This site is getting thousands of hits a day and it is becoming unwieldy, but I have no staff.   If any of you are interested in contributing LET ME KNOW.  I can have a Wordpress blog with articles up in a couple days.  But the key is that it has to be updated as info/firmware changes.  That was the situation with the WIKI.  Promises were made that it would always be updated etc.  BTW hosting files on my server is no problem. I have lots of space. 

As always I welcome all your thoughts and ideas.  



J
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: bobosquishy on July 30, 2009, 07:54:58 AM
I would vote for wiki as well. I do not think it will be easy to structure the info about all mods in such a way as it fits the database format; the mods are just too different.

Probably the best way to do it would be people documenting their mods directly in the wiki not in these threads. This way it will not require much additional effort on their side.

Agreed.  It also allows others to add helpful information and clarification.  The only real challenge is to figure out a clear and simple way of keeping the wiki organized and easy to navigate for the layman.  It shouldn't be a problem with the right wiki software.  The software for the current wiki is very poor.

Back to re-designing WIKI I will open WIKI maybe soon and I am not sure if too many people will be able
work together and update content seriously.

That will not help.  Not enough people know about the wiki and there is also the problem with the wiki software being bad.  There are a few steps that will make the wiki a success.

1. Make a main page for this site that has prominent links to the forum and the wiki so that when people come here, they will always see that there is also a wiki.
2. Get better wiki software.  Use the same software that wikipedia uses, so that people are familiar with it, plus it is the best wiki software anyway.  I realize that this will require hosting with SQL, but if you want the wiki to work and be successful, then it is my strong opinion that it must be done.
3. Open a discussion page for ideas about how to organize the wiki, and feature a prominent link to it from the wiki's main page.  The whole point of a wiki is to get other people participating.  Don't try to control it; let the users do that.  Moderators should only be needed for banning spammers/vandals and deleting pages and files, not for being dictators.

The advertising on this site BARELY covers the costs.

...

This site is getting thousands of hits a day and it is becoming unwieldy, but I have no staff.

Start accepting donations, maybe?
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Fishbowls on July 30, 2009, 04:33:58 PM
folks i dont know anything about making and maintaining websites and wiki's
but
i was wondering if http://sites.google.com/ (http://sites.google.com/) fits the bill
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: redindian on July 30, 2009, 11:33:39 PM
Nah, don't think so. :)
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: powerleakin on July 30, 2009, 11:58:32 PM
so i guess one step that we can at least take now is decide whether it should be wiki or some other system...

reading the posts,i see that quite a few say wiki is the way to go...does everyone agree?

can anyone detail this further? (ie. comparing it head-on with a...i don know what you call it,a database system?)



btw,thanks elm for putting it up in your blog..hope to see more ppl putting forward their ideas and suggestion..
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: mike2k8 on July 31, 2009, 07:50:48 AM
I thing that an easy to use open wiki would be a very good thing. (I centainly would have writen some information on the current wiki if it was open.)
This is a must to store the relevant information originated in the forum. This way, you can point people to the wiki when they ask the same questions again in the forum. And the relevant info is there and you don't have to navigate a lot of threads to find bits of information.

Being said that. A software repository is needed too. It would be great to have everything in one place. For OSS projects, sourceforge could be used, but it would be needed another alternative for closed source mods.

Having both, the updated wiki and the software repository, surely would bring more developers to work in our little black box.

It's only my opinion from an user point of view. :)
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: jayallan on July 31, 2009, 10:04:16 AM
If you guys can find good wiki software I will install it at wdtvforum.com/wiki and link it from the first page.  Then anyone can add to it all you want and we can reference it in forum postings.  

This might work.   http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki

Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: elmarweber on July 31, 2009, 11:25:54 AM
MediaWiki is the obvious choice, it works, everybody knows and can handle it. A friend of mine who needed a week to "get" Thunderbird to write mail changed content on Wikipedia the same week without any help =)

Would be nice if Wiki authentication is bundled together with the Forum. I guess it lowers the threshold for people to change the wiki content and write articles. But we should probably check back with rezmus on the wiki at wdtv.org because there is already a lot of content.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: jayallan on July 31, 2009, 11:37:37 AM
I need to upgrade my servers to PHP5 (from 4) to use MediaWiki.  Hopefully this will not cause any problems  :-\

Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: rezmus on July 31, 2009, 11:40:18 AM
i'm just hosting wiki.wdtv.org, about content / administration u should talk to 3dxr. i don;t mind setting up open mediawiki @ wdtv.org, but if u can bundle it with board auth could be even better.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: reaverxai on August 01, 2009, 08:15:43 AM
I'm the one that created the application database on here.

Currently I'm working on creating a database that can be edited by anyone (or a select group) and fully lists all the things I featured in my first list, plus many of the suggestions from this thread.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: CrashX on August 03, 2009, 04:56:22 AM
We also need to fix the forum so that it has subforums, ie:

Homebrew/Custom Firmware
   -> General Discussion -> Newbie to wdtv ..
   -> Homebrew Releases -> releases
   -> Development -> Discussion on development of apps

We need to have sticky as well ..
   
   
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: CrashX on August 03, 2009, 04:57:59 AM
I'm the one that created the application database on here.

Currently I'm working on creating a database that can be edited by anyone (or a select group) and fully lists all the things I featured in my first list, plus many of the suggestions from this thread.

Please make sure that Forum's login information is the same as wiki. 
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: mike2k8 on August 03, 2009, 09:46:08 AM
Currently I'm working on creating a database that can be edited by anyone (or a select group) and fully lists all the things I featured in my first list, plus many of the suggestions from this thread.
Wouldn't it be better to wait to have an open mediawiki (if possible, like rezmus says, bundled with board authentication), and put it there?

We also need to fix the forum so that it has subforums, ie:

Homebrew/Custom Firmware
   -> General Discussion -> Newbie to wdtv ..
   -> Homebrew Releases -> releases
   -> Development -> Discussion on development of apps
We need to have sticky as well ..
I don't see the need to further divide the forum. It's good as is. For newbies you already have a sticky, as you have one for releases, which could have a link to the list in the wiki.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Mr Lazy on September 22, 2009, 05:53:39 AM
Guys I've given the wiki a good clean-up.  Just improved formatting, use of English, deleted any broken links, graphics, deleted out-of-date or irrelevant information etc.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: Fishbowls on September 22, 2009, 07:10:21 AM
awesome
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: redindian on September 23, 2009, 12:41:25 AM
nice work, will have to move some of my info to the wiki too. will do that after the next release which shouldn't take really long anymore.
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: jayallan on September 23, 2009, 10:54:41 AM
Guys I've given the wiki a good clean-up.  Just improved formatting, use of English, deleted any broken links, graphics, deleted out-of-date or irrelevant information etc.

Nice work!  :)
Title: Re: it's growing fast..we need to organize!
Post by: 3dxr on September 23, 2009, 02:37:03 PM
Huh soo many accounts on wiki and now is first who rewrite content

Nice work .... WIKI need new CMS system MediaWIKI should be there but no idea when :(
We need WDTV,WDTVmini,WDTV2 sections OSDmods/GUI  package crosscompiling section